Ep#59 What is an AWS Developer Advocate with Romain Jourdan

Host: Jon

Okay. Okay. So you heard AWS use the terms, developer advocate, dev real dev relationships, evangelists, dev avocado. Wait, that might just be an internal term. Sh don't tell anyone or specialists, are you looking to understand all these roles and why AWS created them, or maybe how you can join or apply specifically for these roles?

Host: Jon

Joining me today is none other than the head of developer advocate specialists at AWS ramen. Jordan, he's gonna explain each one of these roles and what they mean and how you can get involved or apply to them. Now I'll have a link in the description below to the latest roles that ramen is actually hiring for. Oh, and not to mention that we're gonna talk about AWS's hiring process, including their leadership principles and yes, they take them very seriously. Okay. Before I bring ramen onto the show, don't forget to hit that, like subscribe and notify. Please join me in welcoming the head of developer advocate specialists at AWS Ram and Jordan ramen. Thank you so much for joining.

Guest: Romain

Hi, thank you for having me

Host: Jon

Ramen. I'm really super excited about this interview because it's a huge passion of mine to talk about developer advocates, evangelists dev real, and we're gonna get into those, but what does the head of developer advocate specialists do at AWS?

Guest: Romain

Um, my main role would be to take care of my team, help them grow and them, uh, in their job cuz uh, their job is to engage with the community and my job is to help them, you know, um, doing that and uh, removing all the barriers that they are facing and um, and also inspiring them to, um, to do more sometimes or to do, uh, to think differently. Um, so that's part of, of my job. A big part of my job is to, um, is to take over the team and uh, and the other part is to grow the team is to, uh, define what, uh, the team should become in three years from now and, uh, work with, uh, uh, with our recruiters, with, um, our network of, uh, candidates to, uh, to find, uh, the next talent to join the team and, uh, and inspire others to, um, to build on AWS

Host: Jon

Spoken like a true leader. You're focused on the team and growing the team. And we're gonna talk about a number of those roles that you have opened in a few moments, but I do like the leadership ability that you just spoke about because that really drives and engages not only your team, but the community.

Guest: Romain

Yeah. Thank you. <laugh>

Host: Jon

Okay. I have to ask because there are a number let's get into, what is an AWS developer advocate? What do they do? I mean, what I know there's a number of roles that we're gonna talk about, and I know there's a number of titles that we're gonna talk about, but let's just talk about this one.

Guest: Romain

Sure. Okay. So, um, so my group is part of the developer relation, um, organization within AWS and, um, and actually across Ws, we have different, uh, people who are in the developer relation type of role. So we have advocates in, um, in different parts of the organization. Um, so, um, I would say that we have three flavors of, uh, developed advocates within AWS. We have, um, the first one, which is, um, DAS in, in the service teams. So meaning that they are embedded with the product teams. Um, when I joined AWS, actually I joined the container org. So well the one in charge of product like Amazon ECS, EKS, ECR, so everything related to containers and, and my job was to lead a team of da were really focusing on, on containers. So, uh, their job is to, um, really, um, engage with the community externally to talk about containers, um, about the trains, what are, what are the open source tools that are, uh, powerful for people to know when, whenever they, they are building application in the cloud, um, and, um, and, uh, and giving them best practices or good practices, depending on the, the maturity of the technology and, uh, and also collect the needs from that community and, uh, and go back to the service team with the product engineers, um, to, um, to shape the roadmap, to, um, enhance our features, to, uh, propose new services while going to that are going to address some of the problems that the community is facing.

Guest: Romain

So, um, the role of a, of a advocate, what I call a da, right? The advocate in, in a, in a service team is really, um, uh, going in both direction, inbound and outbound, outbound, meaning, uh, you know, engaging with the community, uh, creating content and, uh, and inbound means means, uh, um, collecting feedback, collecting, uh, you know, uh, requirements from the community and working, um, within, within AWS and represent that community inside. So, so that's the service team, uh, DAS on the other side of the spectrum of DAS, we have, um, the, uh, the DAS in the, in, in the regions. So, um, they used to be called technical evangelists because their role is to evangelize and to talk about AWS and to build communities, um, of, um, you know, um, AWS, um, uh, developers, what we call builders actually, uh, because there's not only software developers, we have different type of, uh, of builders.

Guest: Romain

And we can, we can talk about that later on, but, um, but really their job is to, um, to talk about everything at Ws in their geo. So their scope is, uh, local, but they talk about everything at AWS. Okay. And, and they belong to the dev developer relation dev, uh, organization of, at AWS. And my team is kind of in, in the middle. Um, so my group of specialists, they are, um, focusing on, um, on persona. So as I said earlier, we talk about builders and, and actually what we recognize is that we have different type of builders who are, uh, building stuff on AWS of, of course we, we think about the software engineers, the front end engineers, the backend engineers who are going to create application, but there are a lot of other people who are very, um, technical end zone, technical people who are building on AWS.

Guest: Romain

So we have, um, cloud architect or cloud engineers who are operating on AWS. We have, um, data scientists, uh, data engineers who are creating, you know, uh, data lakes and, uh, and using analytics, um, on AWS to, uh, to create, um, great application. Uh, we have, um, you know, um, uh, infrastructure people, we have, uh, security people. So we have different type of, uh, of technical persona. We are building on the cloud and, and my team specialize in those specific personas. So I have a group of people who are focusing on data scientists and they, they talk mostly about AIML and they represent the needs of those communities internally as well with the different service teams. So we are not specific, we are not working with one service team. We're working with a, a group of teams of product teams internally. Um, so to guide the, um, the, and enhance the, uh, the experience end to end for the specific persona on AWS.

Guest: Romain

So for example, a software developer, a do net developer, for example, is not just interested in running, um, their application on Lambda. For example, Warren containers, they are interested in, in the full journey to get there. So it starts with tools that you can integrate in your IDE. It, it also, um, um, encomp encompasses, uh, storage or databases or, or, uh, you know, uh, compute. So there are many aspects of, um, of interest for a particular persona. And my team specialize really in understanding their needs, representing those needs internally and influence the roadmap of many services. So to build solutions that are relevant for, uh, customers.

Host: Jon

I know when I was at AWS and it's, it's almost actually been a year now, and actually I can go back like two years, these types of roles were really there. Weren't many of them, right. There was only a handful of developer advocates, evangelist roles. I know I was looking for a couple while I was there and they were very infrequent, but recently, and the reason that I reached out to you on, uh, LinkedIn, the one time is because I saw like probably 15, 20 rolls start to pop up in the feed, or even on Twitter. I was like, oh my God, ramen, this is crazy on all the number of roles. Have you seen how critical it is for companies and including AWS to have these type of roles to have the community engagement and to, I wanna say evangelize, but to actually talk about these services and bring them back internally.

Guest: Romain

Yeah, I think, um, why is that critical? Um, I think the success of, um, AWS has always been with builders, right? The people who believed in AWS. So the, the power, um, the, the, um, the, uh, the, the potential of, uh, building amazing application on the us. And, uh, and this is where we come from. This is coming from the builders were, you know, um, who took a leap forward and, uh, and really build some amazing stuff. So think about the Netflix. So the Airbnb, all the, the massive startup that, uh, started from, from nothing and, and, and build a, a huge business. So, um, so we have always been supporting, uh, those type of builders. And, um, over time, we, we have, um, maybe a bit shifted our attention to more big enterprise companies because they, they started to adopt, um, the cloud. And, um, and, uh, this is where our account team are focusing on.

Guest: Romain

They are focusing on really taking care of, uh, those, um, enterprise customers and, um, combining them in their transformation to the, to the, to the business, to, to the cloud, but out, but the long tail of customers needs to be taken care of. And, uh, and the service and the, the model that we have used since the beginning is a self-service model. And this is where DAS are playing, um, a big role because we are, um, engaging in one too many. Um, so as opposed to a solution architect, for example, who is really focusing on a set of accounts or on a territory, um, we, we, we, we really engage with the, the, the community, the long care of customers, or they could be, um, external people who are not customers at all. And, uh, and we engage with them and try to understand what they they want. And, um, and we are trying to represent their needs internally as well. Cuz as you know, um, as a former Amazonian, Amazon is all about working backwards from customers and to be able to work backwards from customers, you need to listen to them, you need to interact with them and not just a few, uh, but, uh, but ideally, um, they, uh, all, all the community

Host: Jon

As a da, I think it's very critical to engage socially, to actually be within the groups, to kind of go out there and talk to a number of people. Your whole job is really to actually listen to the community and talk about, I mean, you're not only talking about AWS in the specific personas and areas that you're in, but you're listening and you're bringing your expertise to them and they're telling you, Hey, well, this is what I'm using it for. And they're taking it back internally. My next question for you is that this role, if you take Amazon out of the picture, so AWS outta the picture, do you think other companies should be adopting this type of role and the value that it provides? Because I mean, you know, my answer, I love doing this stuff. I love talking to people, but I, I find it very critical.

Guest: Romain

Yeah. I I've seen, um, you know, um, over the past, uh, three or four years, a big increase of those roles happening on the market. I will remain a bit critical on that because, um, I think, uh, for many companies, um, they are basically rebranding what the technical marketing engineer was doing, meaning that, um, um, they want someone technical who can engage with their, um, agents, their technical agents to create content, to use their product, guide them, using their products. Um, that's great. And, and, and there's a lot of commonalities with, um, with, uh, a dev advocate role. Um, they create, um, they, their right blogs, they create videos, they create demos, um, and they can also do podcasts. So that that's all good where I'm missing a bit is that, um, the first feature of a good da for me is that they remain a builder.

Guest: Romain

They are not a marketing person per se. They are a builder. So whenever they, they use one of our services at AWS, for example, uh, they just, they don't do world. They, they really create something meaningful. They, as, as if they were sitting at a customer and, and building the next generation of applications, that's, that's the value of the advocate. You need to remain a builder yourself and, and that's how you earn trust with the community. And that's how you are part of that community. So for example, um, in my team, I have a Java expert, um, is not only talking about AWS, he's talking about Java and, uh, and what are the best practices in Java? What can you do with Java 17, uh, or now 18 soon? Uh, and, uh, and how do you move from Java six or eight to Java 17, nothing about AWS here, because you need to, to be part of that community to understand their challenges you need to, to, um, to really, um, um, you know, um, if, if you want to relate with, with them, you need to build and feel the, the pain that they are feeling.

Guest: Romain

So, so you can participate to the solution and not just throwing products at, at the community, but really understand what they, what, what they are, the challenges that they are facing, and indeed explaining how they can use some great tools to, um, to achieve what they want, but also identifying the, uh, the problems that they are facing and, and going back to research team and say, Hey, what can we do there? What if we could improve that experience for that particular audience? That's I think the main benefits. So, yeah. Um, more roles opening on the markets. Um, I think, um, it's, it really depends on, um, on what the, uh, the company wants from, uh, from, um, from, um, the advocates and also how much they understand the value of the debit.

Host: Jon

I think that's critical in understanding the value that a developer advocate brings. Okay. So I'm a builder and I, you and I want to use the example of, okay. I, I, I wanna apply at AWS and this question is out there is for everybody listening, you're a builder, right. Should I apply for a developer advocate role, a dev role? And now you said evangelist is really a devel now, right. Or, okay, so now I only have two I've marked it down. How do I know which one to apply for? I mean, they, they all sound interesting to me.

Guest: Romain

Okay. So, um, first of all, um, like discuss, discuss about the features we are looking for in ADI. And then, um, so, um, as I said, the main one is to be a builder. You need to be, um, technical, you need to, um, to be, uh, you know, implementing stuff and, and having that experience of trans, you know, migrating to the cloud, uh, your infrastructure or creating new application in the cloud or so, so you need, you need that, um, background. Um, so to be relevant and, and be able to guide all this that's, that's, uh, the main feature that we are looking for, the second one is being a good communicator because, uh, you can be the best engineer, but if you are not able to inspire others and, and guide them, and, uh, and also, um, adapt your, um, your talks to the audience, because no, not everybody is, um, an expert in, in everything. Some are reconverting, some are, um, trying to, um, you know, to break into tech. So how can we help them? What, what are the, uh, so, and, and making the complex, understandable is something that, um, is critical for a D advocate. You need to be able to talk, you know, in, in details about the technology, but you need to be able to EV elevate your speech to make, to make yourself, um, understandable to, um, to, to the masses.

Host: Jon

And what if for, okay, so I'm geared towards that, but what about the Debra? Do you have any insights on there that you can find it, that I can really make the decisions between the two or

Guest: Romain

Different roles? So, okay. Yep. Um, so, um, the, um, if you are, if you see yourself as a generalist, for example, um, you like, you are technologies, you like everything you like to build the, in the cloud and, and you like to engage with, uh, with the community and, um, and, um, inspire others to, to build. I think this is, um, a great wall, a great, um, path to go, uh, on a, on the regional da, because, uh, they really need to talk about everything. They need to talk about AI ML one day and then, uh, security. And then, uh, they could be, uh, talking about, uh, servers and, uh, and then a container. So it's a mix of things. And, um, and, um, and, and for many people, it's, it's great because, um, you have a huge toolbox available to you and, uh, and then, uh, you, you guide others to use that use, uh, toolbox.

Guest: Romain

So that's, um, that's super interesting. And, and also, um, you get to build your, um, your, um, you know, different committees, um, in your territory, in your geo. So, um, so that, that can be great. Um, others may feel that, um, they belong to a specific audience. So for example, I am a software engineer. I, I, I feel I am, or a network engineer, or I am a solution architect I'm. Um, so with this, um, I feel that, uh, in my team there's, uh, it, it will be a good fit because, um, for example, as I said, the people in my team are engaging with data scientist, community. They are data scientists themselves, themselves, and they, and they explain and they build models and they, they, uh, they explain how to use, uh, SageMaker in this context, or even, uh, other open source framework and, and so on. So, so you need to belong to one category and, uh, and, uh, and willing to engage specifically with that community and, and represent that community internally. So I would say that's, that's the main difference, uh, between, uh, being an original da and, uh, especi.

Host: Jon

I don't know about my audience, but I think that really helps me understand where, or what I should apply for, uh, as a generalist there's two and some plus services and unique about each one of those. But I can see a transition where you start to get specialized in one, and then move over to a da. Let's talk about your team. You have some roles still open, correct?

Guest: Romain

That's correct. Yeah. Uh, the team is, uh, growing a lot. Um, so, um, so basically I joined, uh, the populations, um, in may of last year and, um, and took over this role of, um, head of the specialists. And, um, and my goal is really to, uh, um, to help, um, those different builders, uh, you know, um, understand the, the possible, the possibilities. And, uh, and then, um, and then, uh, have a voice internally relay by our DAS. So, um, I have, uh, already a big group and, uh, and this group is expanding. Um, so, uh, what I'm looking for today, uh, I have different needs actually, because we

Host: Jon

Let's list them all out because okay.

Guest: Romain

If

Host: Jon

I'm I'm serious, because if my listeners are listening right now and they're hanging on, we know they are, you seem to be like an awesome leader to work for. So I'm encouraging people to apply. Let's talk about some of the roles, list them out. I'll post 'em on the screen. I'll share, 'em the description. We don't have to go through each one. You can just list on a couple, but your immediate needs, and then we're gonna talk about applying and maybe the loop process and interview.

Guest: Romain

Yeah. So, um, data is a big, is a big thing for us and, and for our customers. And, um, and I think, um, there is an opportunity for us to do a better job at explaining how to use, um, um, AWS to manage your data. So which database should you use? I mean, uh, you have maybe 11 a database today on AWS, uh, and, uh, and they are, you know, purpose built for different use cases. So how do you choose that? So I need someone, uh, who can help that, uh, audience to, um, to understand and make the choice. So we are looking for people who are opinionated and, uh, and, uh, they have that, that background experience that can, um, guide others. Um, and, uh, and, and the first job is, um, is, um, a da was going to focus, focus on data engineering.

Guest: Romain

Um, another role is, um, another specialist on AIML. So someone who is going to engage with, uh, with, uh, the data scientist, um, uh, population, but also with the software engineers, um, to use AI services. So, um, so, you know, you don't have to be an expert in machine learning to be able to use AI services because we have higher, um, you know, um, level of, um, of, uh, services like, uh, transcribed or, or recognition what just basically APIs that you can call to, uh, to, um, to use machine learning capabilities. Huh. So if someone who has, uh, um, that experience of, uh, using IML practically, uh, to build application, uh, and, and someone that will be passionate about, uh, inspiring others to, uh, to do the same and guide them uh that's uh, that's one of the role in my team. And, uh, does that

Host: Jon

Also help them encourage to use deep racer cuz you know, I'm a big fan of that.

Guest: Romain

Yeah. So deep racer is, uh, is indeed, uh, something, uh, that, uh, falls into, um, into that category. But as I said, I mean, um, we are not product specialists. We are really working backboards from, from uh, our audience and, and trying to find the best tools, um, and, and the best options for, for customers to build in the cloud. And sometimes those solutions are open source tools that leave outside of AWS and, uh, and it's important for us and for audience that they know that, uh, that, uh, those tools are available out there and they can use them. So, um, but yeah, deep ER is a good example, indeed.

Host: Jon

Rama, before you, uh, say another role, I like how you mentioned that you're kind of, uh, you, you might push a customer towards like an open source, something that's outside of AWS, right there alone, you're establishing and building trust with a customer saying, you know what, there's something better out there. We can't provide it. We did take note of this. It is a request we're, we're sending back, but this is the best tool right now available for you. I think you just are established in a huge trust between the community.

Guest: Romain

Yeah. So my team is doing that very well. I mean, um, one of my da Ricardo, whereas is, uh, our expert on open source and, uh, every week is, um, sending, uh, you know, a newsletter. Um, and you can find the email also on dev two, uh, where is listing the key open source projects that are happening in the community that can help, um, improve the der experience. So, um, you know, another example of, uh, no, it's not only about AWS, but, um, but, uh, it's uh, about helping the community, you know, build. So, um, so that's a good example. So I was talking about data. Um, so that's a big theme that covers data engineering, um, analytics, um, AI ML and, and databases. And, um, and this is a group which is growing a lot. And, um, and for that, I'm also looking for a leader, um, to help me and to, uh, take care of the existing team and grow that team. And, um, so, uh, I'm looking for someone who cares about, uh, people and, uh, who is committed to, um, to, uh, um, have them grow and, uh, and inspire others to join. So, uh, that's the third wall that I have, um,

Host: Jon

Robin, I'm gonna post all these in the description. Okay. Below the roles that you are looking for, I encourage you after, or during listening to this podcast, you may pause it to go apply, but come back because you're gonna miss out on some cool things. I will add them. And I wanna see, I think I'm gonna follow up with you to see how many people have actually followed through and maybe applied after to the podcast. I would be really curious. All right, ramen, I've applied now. I've got, and I'm talking to you, I have the interview and, uh, maybe you wanna talk about the interview and then the loop process and we will wrap things up from there.

Guest: Romain

Perfect. Yeah. Sounds good. So, um, the first, I'm sorry, the process, the process is that, uh, it starts with the phone screen, um, and the phone screen really focuses on the, the functional fit. So, uh, this is where you explain what you have done and give us example of what you have achieved because, uh, this is how we, we, we can assess the technical depth and also the impact that you have done. So you have had so far, and, uh, and this is critical for us to understand whether or not you will be, um, able to, to join our team and, and will be a great addition to the team. So the phone screen, um, is, um, is led by, um, some of my most senior DAS and, uh, and they are looking for the, the next, uh, colleague to, to join them. And, uh, and, uh, and, and they, they care.

Guest: Romain

I mean, um, it's usually, it's a great experience for, for interviews and for interviewers and candidates, because, um, we, we want that, we, we want that expense. We, we really want to make it a great expense. Um, so there's no coding style type of interviews. Um, we really want to understand what you've achieved and give us details how you did things, how our, what technology stack have used. What did you do? Cause we is a, is a common word that we underst that we hear in interviews. Uh, what we want is to understand, I, I did this, I implement this. Why? Because, because it matters for my customers because I understood what my customers were, were trying to achieve. And, and that guiding my direction because we are a customer obsessed company, right. And we are looking for candidates. We're also customer obsessed. So we really want to understand why are you doing things? Not because your boss asked you to do something, but because it mattered to your customers.

Host: Jon

The, we is really tough for people. I being through the process or any interview process, somebody who is, I don't wanna say humble, right? You don't wanna be like, look at me, look at me, look at me. Yeah. So it's really hard to say I did this because you don't wanna take credit for, you know, a team, but the key that Robin's trying to get to is they want to understand exactly what was your contribution. They need to, it's okay to talk about yourself. One of the things is what did you build? Uh, and Robin correct me if I'm wrong, but like, what did you build? Why'd you build it, who'd you build it for? What was your community involvement within some of this? And how did you get people engaged? Did you write something for, did you attend an event and were there, uh, you know, quantitative numbers that you could follow up were because as index Amazonian data drives all they wanna understand what was the total thing don't be begged be specific. So am I correct?

Guest: Romain

That's exactly correct. Yeah. I mean, um, they, uh, as you said, Amazon is a data driven company and what it means, it means that, um, we don't interview on good feelings. We are trying to collect data points. We want to understand what, what the candidate has done. And, uh, and, um, and, uh, what were their contribution, as you said, so it's okay to talk about we, because, uh, you were part of the, of a team. We deliver a project and that's good for the context, but, uh, when, when we want to talk about specifics, we want to understand what did you do? So, so that's super important for us and, and, and we can collect that data. So to make, um, a good assessment of, um, of your application and say, yes, this person has achieved that, you know, that project and, uh, with this level of complexity. So we believe that they have the technical depth and, and, um, and their impact was, uh, was big. So we definitely want them,

Host: Jon

Robin, I assume that it's gonna be critical that they've had speaking opportunities. Maybe they've had videos out there, something that they, uh, contribute to. There was an event that they did, because the communication is really key that you mentioned.

Guest: Romain

Yeah. So, so indeed, I mean, um, for our roles, we expect people to be able to, um, be seen out there and, uh, and have that experience engaging with the community that's, that's critical. So, um, this is where, um, I think, um, I, I'm creating a new type of con of, uh, role, uh, which I call content DAS and, and those people are really focusing on creating awesome, um, content and not, um, as another D uh, as regular da, uh, is doing, um, a mix of, uh, great content talks, engaging with the community, uh, traveling to conferences and so on as well is a bit more focused. You still need to engage with the community, probably most, mostly online to understand their needs and so on. But, uh, but really the focus is on, uh, creating great content. It could be videos could be, um, uh, logs, for example, uh, or tutorials, but, um, yeah, that's a bit, uh, you know, so, so overall the communication is super important. The media can vary. I would say,

Host: Jon

You said you're working on creating this role, so it's an upcoming role. And by the time this video gets out, maybe there's role is available.

Guest: Romain

No, no. The two roles are already open. Um, so for

Host: Jon

The one you said for content da,

Guest: Romain

So yeah, so, um, so I have two openings for content DAS one.

Host: Jon

Oh, so they're available.

Guest: Romain

Yeah. Yeah. So one you introducing for on, on, um, um, web and, and mobile and, uh, and the other one is, uh, focusing on cloud infrastructure.

Host: Jon

All right. Folks, I'm gonna include some more roles in the description below on the scene. Robin. I think my YouTube description's gonna be filled up with these, but that's all right.

Guest: Romain

Good, perfect. <laugh>

Host: Jon

Sorry,

Guest: Romain

Robin, let have the phone screen. So now let's up the next step. So the next step is, uh, what we call internally the loop, which is still call, uh, onsite interviews all, although they are all virtual those days, but, uh, but basically it's, um, it's a series of interviews with, um, um, one specific interviewer and, and, um, and the main outcome of this, um, series is to assess whether the candidate is Amazonian. So whether they operate, um, you know, um, following our guiding principles, our leadership principles. So now we have 16 leadership principles and, um, and of course for DAS, um, there are specific that are, there are some leading leadership principles that are, uh, more important than others, like contrast, as you said earlier, or, or, um, uh, deliver, deliver results or ownership, and of course, customer obsession. Um, so, um, when you prepare and you have to prepare, I mean, you can be a great speaker, but if you come unprepared to an interview like, like hours, it won't be a great experience because what we ask asking from you is to come up with examples of what you have achieved.

Guest: Romain

And we, we look at those examples, examples through the lens of, uh, the leadership principles. So think about what you have achieved. So it's require a lot of, um, introspection, um, on the, on what you have achieved so far. And, um, I think it's a great exercise as a candidate. It was a great experience for me, um, stressful. I agree, but, uh, but, uh, but it's, it's a great experience because you need to think about, okay, what I've achieved so far and why did it matter? And those are critical question that you should, you should ask yourself before coming to the interview.

Host: Jon

I know a number of people that will prepare at like two weeks for the onsite, like day in and day out of, you know, really kind of honing in their, their story on their leadership principles. Then providing an example, specific examples. I did it massively. And so ours was still on site. I went up to New York, I was up there for, uh, the loop. It was six hours, whatever, when I was done, I didn't want to talk to anybody on the phone. I had the music off driving back from New York. I just wanted total peace because it is, it is stressful, but it's worth it in the end. You know, you kind of start to feel and understand why AWS does this, why they pull these questions out and why they're looking for it, and, you know, and why there's multiple, uh, interviewers, uh, so that they can get different perspectives in the, throughout the whole entire process. So as much as you said, it's stressful. I did find it enjoyable in, I guess, a weird way. <laugh>

Guest: Romain

Hopefully, I mean, um, that's, um, that's our goal, um, for any candidate we really want to, uh, to deliver the best experience. So, um, even if, uh, in the end we don't select them. Uh, we don't offer them a job. Um, I think we, we are really keen on, uh, making that experience the best that we can, um, and, uh, and so that, uh, people can enjoy and, uh, and, uh, and they, they feel listened to. So I think it's important

Host: Jon

Ramen before we wrap things up. Do you have anything you wanna leave with the audience, like, uh, click that apply button or, Hey <laugh>

Guest: Romain

Yeah, I mean, um, click that, um, apply button is a good one, but, um, if you are passionate about what you, you do, um, I think, um, da is a great role, but, uh, you can also be part of the community. So, uh, we have community programs, um, because you, you may love your job, uh, at the moment and don't want you to leave it, but you, you may want also to do more, so, uh, feel, feel free to join our AWS communities like, uh, heroes or community builders. It's a great community where you can, uh, learn from each other. You can create content and you can get some feedback also, uh, to get better at what you do. And, uh, and I think, um, it's a great also experience. So, uh, yeah,

Host: Jon

Robert, one more question. I actually just thought of it. And I wanna clear the air that you don't have to necessarily have AWS knowledge to apply for these roles, correct.

Guest: Romain

That's correct. Bacteria. I do have, um, people who joined my team recently, who had a limited experience with AWS and actually that makes their, um, their story even better because, uh, they come from the same background than what our customers are, are facing. I mean, for example, I hired, um, uh, the one Lightfoot, um, is, uh, an network engineers. Um, he has been working in his industry for several years and, uh, and now he is moving to the cloud with us. And, uh, he is able to, to explain that journey to other people who are also beginning to consider the cloud and, and we are afraid about the cloud and, uh, and having that empathy, uh, is, is one of the best quality for a good da. So, uh, you know, being in that, uh, in their shoes and, uh, explaining, okay, this is, this is, uh, what I'm feeling at a moment or, or the question I'm I'm, I'm, I'm, uh, I'm wonder, I'm wondering about, uh, the cloud as an engineer or, or as a security engineer who has never worked on, on, on AWS. I think it's a great experience for that.

Host: Jon

I agree with you. Okay. Everyone. Guess what? We're gonna wrap things up. And we were talking about AWS developer advocates, Deb res, and hall evangelist is Deb res with head of developer advocate specialists, ramen, Jordan, ramen. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank

Guest: Romain

You. Thank you for your time.

Host: Jon

Uh, I gotta tell you, man, this was fun and I hope to do this again.

Guest: Romain

Perfect. Okay. Let's do that.

Host: Jon

All right. You know what? You heard it here, folks. It's on the recording, cuz guess what? We're outta here.