Ep#108 The Ultimate Guide to Creating a Personal Brand

Host: Jon

Please join me in welcoming Michael Levan, to the show. He's a content creator, consultant, and researcher. Michael, thank you so much for joining me.

Guest: Michael

Thanks for having me on, Jon. Appreciate it.

Host: Jon

All right, Michael, you and I have become really good friends. Actually, in the last couple of months, we met at the AWS New York Summit. Huge freaking thing. We had an hour-long conversation just standing way off to the side talking about content and creating, and now we share some tips and tricks daily. So I appreciate that. Michael, before we get into our topic today, and our topic is around brand awareness and personalizing your brand, how about you give everybody a little bit of backstory on yourself?

Guest: Michael

Sure, yeah. So I'll keep it high level, but if you want me to dive into anything, please let me know. I started my career in general, help desk systems administration, moved into more virtualization, then moved into the cloud, and kind of found myself a little bit, doing more software development. And then after that, taking the infrastructure piece, taking the software development piece met somewhere in the middle and went to the, well, we were calling it more SRE back then, but I think now it's more platform engineering. And then since decided to go out on my own. Now I do everything from everything. Kubernetes and containerization, content consulting, all that good stuff.

Host: Jon

All right, Michael, our topic, brand awareness and personalize, your brand does come into play here with all the content that you create and how you're creating it and how you're getting out there for the community. You're well known around Kubernetes and being dare I say and don't take this wrong, an influencer, whether you like it or not, but an influencer into the community around Kubernetes, but a technical one.

Guest: Michael

Yeah, yeah. I still have there are two things that people call me. Well, there are a couple, but I won't say most of them can't.

Host: Jon

Can check off the explicit box if you want to. I was just kidding.

Guest: Michael

Influencer and thought leader and they kind of irk me a little bit because, well, the thought leader title back way back when that was, you are the biggest and best in what you do in your area of focus. You were the guy or gal, now it's like an influencer, right? That's what it kind of sounds like. Nowadays, as an influencer, I kind of get a bad rap especially because of what I do. My whole thing is I go deep into technical topics so you don't have to, I go deep into them and then I write about them and I make it more digestible for everybody, whether it's on a product, whether it's on a specific implementation, whatever the case may be. My whole thing is I like to go as deep as possible into a specific topic, and then I like to create content on it. But as an influencer, you kind of get more of a high-level vibe from a lot of influencers, which is fine. There's nothing wrong with that. I just don't think it puts me in the right category if that makes sense. And I don't even know what my category is at this point.

Host: Jon

What if you were a deep technical influencer?

Guest: Michael

I think we can make that, we

Host: Jon

Can. All right, we'll keep that title going off. All right. Right. So let's talk a little bit about some of the stuff that you do because it goes around brand awareness and personalizing your brand. When you post, people follow, re-share, tweet, and comment along the way, and they kind of follow you along for your deep technical knowledge of Kubernetes and containers. Why, first of all, why do you do it?

Guest: Michael

Yeah. Well, the good question sometimes but most of the time so here's my thing. Whenever I worked a full-time job, I always loved implementation. I always loved being hands-on. I always loved figuring stuff out. I like tinkering. But the thing was that, and this is just for any full-time job, there's always something that you have to do that you don't want to do or that doesn't make any sense or something have to do because of politics. Somebody said so something, right? And it just irked me all the time. I always hated the feeling of just doing stuff just because, and that's why I went out on my own and I started this whole independent thing. Now, why I do content because, again, I like the ability to go deep into a specific topic. When you're a platform engineer, when you're a DevOps engineer, you got 50,000 gajillion million, billion things you got to do on your day-to-day.

Guest: Michael

And because of that, it's very difficult to go in depth in something specific unless you're a developer and you're creating something very specific for a very specific product or piece of software or a stack or whatever. But other than that, it's more of a generous, it's more of a <laugh> generalist role nowadays than anything else. And I don't enjoy that. I don't, being at a high level, I enjoy being able to go as in-depth as possible, which is a big part of why I create content. And then the other part is of course because I help people, I do my best to respond to everybody on social media when I can. I do my best to respond to DMS I get a lot. So it's, I just miss stuff and I end up not getting notifications on it and whatever. And I'm always just trying to help out as many people as I can understand any type of technology. Right now I'm focusing on Kubernetes and overall orchestration. It could be nomad, it could be a swarm, it could be ECS, whatever, and just containerization as a whole. But in five years and 10 years, that may change. But the whole idea is to still be able to not only help people but dive as in-depth as I possibly can.

Host: Jon

Michael, when you come up with creating content and how it originally started were you going through a problem, you were trying to solve something, and then all of a sudden you felt compelled to write or to share it with the audience and you're like, you know what? I'm going to make a video of this. How did it all get started for you to start creating continents to start writing about it and start sharing it socially?

Guest: Michael

Yeah, I think it was for two reasons. Number one, exactly like you just said, I had a problem and I was like, I can't be the only one with this problem. And number two, it was to connect and grow from a community perspective. That was one of the goals since the start. And even before I started creating tech content when I was young, 15, 16, I was really into bodybuilding and I had a blog on lifting and stuff and on bodybuilding and on working out different body parts and all that. So I always liked the idea of sharing knowledge and sharing information because we live in a world where you kind of have to do that, right? We're all more or less connected in some way, a little bit spiritual. So we all got to help each other out in one way or another. That's one of the biggest reasons why we're here. And that helps me understand why I want to continue to create content and ultimately why I started it in the first place.

Host: Jon

I think you and I are really or more alike in what it seems because that's actually how I started. So there's a local gym, it's called T F W and they do basically what I say, it's like CrossFit type. And what I did is I was one of the coaches and I wanted to create these videos to help the folks out with their proper form of doing some of the techniques. And it can be anywhere between one minute to two minutes to make sure that they were benching correctly, their elbows are in yada yada. This is not a weightlifting podcast, but it's all around the content gradient. And I started making these videos and I would share 'em on Facebook on the page and say, Hey, listen, folks, take a look at this. This is how it really should be done. Make sure your form's correct, and if you can't keep your form correct, you need to lighten the weight to make sure you do it correctly. And then it progressed from there where I started running into technical problems and I was like, you know what? I got a quick content idea and I got to share it. I got to put it together and I would just make a video and just post it and share it.

Guest: Michael

That's awesome. Yeah, I mean, I think that's how a lot of people get started where it's like you kind of have a problem and you're like, can't be the only one <laugh> with that problem. And again, funny enough, the reason why content does so well, and not even tech content, just content in general, there are a lot of people that create content on life and psychology and on cognitive science and all these things and lifting and all that. And the reason why it gets views and people like it is because other people are feeling the same way, which goes back to we're all connected in one way, shape, or form. After all, we're all kind of feeling the same things. That's just humanity in general. So it's interesting when you think about it at that level, why people are creating content and why people are consuming content.

Host: Jon

Michael, before we started this conversation and click and record, you were talking about a problem that you just had with creating your content. It was a 10-minute video you're working on and putting together. Would you like to share your thought process around creating content or coming up with ideas and knowing what the outcome is, what you want it to look like, and how much time and effort it takes to get to that process?

Guest: Michael

Absolutely. Yeah. So I would say, funny enough, the big spark for a lot of the content that I put out, and this is just the personal content that I'm putting out. This is not including the stuff that people are paying me for the various products and stuff, but I'm reading something, right? Maybe I'm reading an article or I'm reading a piece of news on Kubernetes or containerization or something, and there's one sentence in there that sticks out to me and it sparks an idea. And then I'm like, oh, that would be interesting. That would be an interesting piece of content. Or if I'm just death is scrolling through social media and I see somebody just bring up a specific topic, I'm like, oh, I think that would be interesting to create a piece of content on. And then the other piece of it too is I will look at different communities, Reddit, discord communities, slack communities, and I'll see problems that people are facing and I'll kind of dive in and I'll create content for those problems because again, it's problems that other people are having as well. And then I guess there's another piece of it. The other piece of it is if I'm doing any type of lab or if I'm playing around with a new technology or something like that, it'll spark an idea and I'll be like, oh, this is interesting. I'll create a piece of content on that.

Host: Jon

Do you prefer content, written content versus video, or maybe both?

Guest: Michael

I do both, and I like both, but I like both for different reasons. I like video because it gives you a different ability to express yourself. It gives you the ability to put a face with the voice. It makes it a little bit more personal, I think. So that's why I like doing YouTube, and that's why I like doing podcasts and that's why I like creating courses and stuff like that. But from a writing perspective, and I'll say that I think because of this, I write a little bit better if I had a choice. And the reason why is that with writing, you can go incredibly in-depth with your words. You can on videos and courses as well. But here's the thing, you got about four to six minutes for a YouTube video before you lose somebody. So you can never go as in-depth as you want to with writing.

Guest: Michael

On the other hand, you can write white papers, you can write architecture guides, you can write long-form articles, and blog posts, and get to go incredibly in-depth with those. And not only that, but you can kind of do it anywhere. I could be sitting at the pool in Florida writing a blog post. I could be on the plane writing a blog post. I can be sitting on my couch writing. So it's a little bit more flexible than recording because when I'm recording, I got to be in my home office. I have my lights here, I have my D S L R here, I have my microphone here. I need this stuff for it to sound and look and feel and smell properly With writing, you don't need all that. You just need a laptop and an idea.

Host: Jon

Yeah, I don't think I'll be doing any recording video content outside of my home office. If I had to do screen shares or recording, I would have maybe my camera on site for customer interviews, the voice of a customer. But I agree with you that having your home setup is ideal only because you have everything in place, but writing does give you that ability to connect more deeply with the reader itself. I want to talk about the videos a little bit. When you create your videos and you mentioned labs that you do, do you prefer a tutorial-type conversation PowerPoint or do you prefer doing an introduction and then jumping right into it to get technical with the audience?

Guest: Michael

Yeah, I prefer to do a little bit of an intro and then dive into the technical bits and show the code and show the screen sharing and all of that. I'm very much, and we can talk about this as well, but I'm very much a middle-of-funnel person, which in marketing or just in content creation in general, you got top of the funnel, which is more viewership, and then you got middle of the funnel, which is more the in-depth stuff. So I'm always very much there. I do the <laugh> thought leadership pieces sometimes and the high-level stuff sometimes, and it can be enjoyable, but I do the technical deep dives way more.

Host: Jon

Do you prefer the content that you create, or actually, I should ask the question? Does your audience prefer a longer form or shorter form of your content?

Guest: Michael

The shorter form, of course. Yeah.

Host: Jon

And what is the ideal short form

Guest: Michael

Right now? I would say the ideal short forum is any type of post on social media. So for example, a LinkedIn post. And the reason why is that it's incredibly consumable for others. And here's kind of the reality and whether it's a good thing or a bad thing or not, it is what it is. Long-form content is kind of going away in a sense. People want things quickly. People are used to TikTok, people are used to YouTube shorts people are used to Twitter threads, and people are used to LinkedIn posts. That short-form content is kind of morphing our brains into only being able to consume bite-sized amounts of data versus sitting there and reading a white paper. So from an audience perspective, it's better to create short-form content. And I do a mixture of it because I want to be able to teach people.

Guest: Michael

And the way to do that is whatever trend is happening at that time, short-form content for example. But at the same time, to fulfill me and to scratch the itch, I have to do long-form stuff and people enjoy it. So for example, I wrote a logging-in Kubernetes blog post, which didn't even realize. I was like, oh, it's going to be 800 words turned into 2300 words. So I just kept going and it ended up getting 10,000 views and it ended up going a little bit viral and stuff on social. So people still enjoy that stuff. I don't know if anybody read the whole thing, but people are still enjoying it. It's just a finite amount of people.

Host: Jon

The post that you do on LinkedIn or Twitter is deep thought leadership and technical, so I'll put the spin on it so you don't have to. But is that content similar to or enjoyable as the video content that you're putting together? Because I know you do both. You do it all, but you are all over social media. Is that considered content in general, the stuff that you post there for people to consume?

Guest: Michael

I believe so, yes. I think at this point, with the way that content is going, that is now a form of content. I truly do believe that. Look, 10, 15 years ago, you had very long forms of white papers. Everybody had books. I had three to four books with me at all times when I was working on some type of issue just in production and stuff. And then it kind of changed, and then people started Googling stuff more and people started looking at blogs more, and then it kind of changed again, and people were doing short-form videos and short-form posts, and then it kind of changed again, and now you got 30 seconds to catch somebody on TikTok to catch their interest and to teach them. So content kind of shifts and changes throughout time. We kind of always see this, and I do believe that one of the biggest pieces of content that anybody, whether you're writing about lifting, if you're writing about tech, if you're writing, you're a food blogger, whatever it is, it's going to turn into more whether, again, whether it's Twitter threads, whether it's LinkedIn posts, whatever the case may be, I think it's going to turn more into that.

Guest: Michael

Even. Funny enough, I created a TikTok yesterday. Now for those of you, if you ever tried to search me, wait

Host: Jon

A second, I'm not following you on TikTok yet. I got to go following you. Yeah, follow me. I got to

Guest: Michael

<laugh>. But for everybody that, if you've ever looked me up on social media, I don't have personal social media. I don't have a Facebook, I don't have Snapchat, I don't have a personal Instagram or anything. I'm not a big fan of social media. However, I'm a big fan of social media when it comes to my work and sharing my work because that's just the way that you do it in today's world. So I tried out TikTok and funny enough, I, I'm sitting here right where I'm talking, I created three really short videos and then I created one in my car and they all got 600 views. Crazy. Nice.

Host: Jon

Wow.

Guest: Michael

Just talking to the camera. And I don't know anything about the algorithm. I put up two or three hashtags. I was like, I don't even know if this is the way that it works or not. But it's just crazy that that's the way that people are now consuming information and therefore that's the way that we have to portray information. And it's very difficult in tech because a lot of what we have to put out there does require depth in one way, shape, or form. Now, if you're an influencer, if you're a speaker, I'm stuttering a little bit, sorry. If you're a speaker you can get your point across in 10 to 15 seconds of what you're trying to teach people. But you can't get your point across in 10 to 15 seconds of how to implement Kubernetes work. That way

Host: Jon

You can say how to implement Kubernetes. We're going to get started. So here, is it? You're done

Guest: Michael

It. That's it. Yeah. So it's weird. We live in a weird time with content and I'm sorry, rambling on about your question, but to kind of circle it back here, posts on social media, that's going to be the new form of us creating content.

Host: Jon

So, everybody, we're talking with Michael Levan about brand awareness and personalizing your brand. Michael, you don't have a personal Facebook or Instagram, but you have one for your business. Let's talk about how creating this content for your brand gets tied to your personalization. Your name is your brand.

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Host: Jon

Let's talk about how does create this content for your brand gets tied to your personalization. Your name is your brand.

Guest: Michael

Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of weird. This was maybe two months ago or so, and I posted something, and what I posted was factual and it was accurate, but it wasn't at the level of depth that I should have put it. And the reason why is because you're having a general conversation with somebody and you just say, yeah, this is the way, blah, blah, blah. Just like a general conversation. And I had somebody reach out to me and they were a hundred percent, they said, and I I'll quote this as best I can, but they're like, people are looking at you for the information around Kubernetes and containerization. They're looking at you to be the person that knows it all. So you have to portray it in that fashion. And it was interesting to hear because number one, I'm just some random guy from New Jersey, just a guy on the internet creating content, by the

Host: Jon

Way. So you see everybody. We're neighbors. I'm in a jersey, so we're close enough.

Guest: Michael

Exactly. So it was interesting to hear that because it puts into perspective for you how people see you and how people portray you. It's typically not how you see and portrays yourself. So having my name and my brand tied to what I do, it's almost like I have to not be careful. Be careful isn't the right word. It's more like I have to think before I speak now. It just can't. I can't just throw up out of my mouth just words whenever I, you

Host: Jon

Got to pick and choose the words and what you want to post. There's a question for you. Yeah, that

Guest: Michael

I said, and concisely, that's still in-depth that people understand because again, people are for you, people are looking at, people are looking at me as the person to go to for the thing based on this information. And we may not see ourselves like that. Cause it's kind of like I'm just a guy that likes tech stuff, but people are looking at me, looking at you. You are the guy. And it's like, oh crap, I got to get it together now.

Host: Jon

<laugh> crap. I need to know, I need to portray, I know what I'm talking about actually. Is that part of this? Is this imposter syndrome? You don't feel that you are the guy, but in actuality, you're portrayed as the guy because of how you come across socially as the guy. Man, I use that three times in one sentence.

Guest: Michael

Yeah, no, good question. I don't think that it's imposter syndrome. Of course, I do get imposter syndrome. Sometimes I'm like, oh god, what am I doing here? Type of thing. But it's not necessarily imposter syndrome. Do you know what it is? Never had a big ego. I've never wanted to be the center of attention. I've never wanted to be the guy. I just, don't have it in me to look at myself and see myself as a person. it's less imposter syndrome, and it's more ignorance on my part. It's just me being ignorant of the fact that I need to start thinking in that way to help others.

Host: Jon

Yeah. Well, that's something of the things that you don't realize you're doing with all the content that you're creating, imposing is you're helping others with their problems and thought processes. While you may not have all the answers, you kind of engage with the audience by replying to comments, and DMS as much as possible and giving them some feedback by saying, Hey, listen, here's what I think about it, what do you think? And pulling others into the conversation. I think you're on the right track. I agree with you that it's one of those things where you never thought or wanted or planned this, but here you are, and now you need to accept it because you're happy and you enjoy it.

Guest: Michael

Exactly. Yeah, no, 100%. Even when I played sports in school, even when I had groups of friends and stuff, I was always very just to myself, I'm a very independent person, I guess you can say. I'm always very to myself, so I'm never looking for gratification elsewhere. I'm never looking to be that person. So now that it's kind of happening and the social media presence is growing and I'm getting more stuff out there, odd, it's an odd feeling. I think <laugh> to this point.

Host: Jon

Yeah. Let me ask you for recommendations on posting some content and getting your brand out there for some of our audience. I want to let you know we're talking with Michael Levan, talking specifically about brand awareness and personalizing your brand. As we realize, Michael and I both have a personalized brand that is tied to our brand awareness, coincidental. That's our topic and that's how it worked out today. We each use our names because one, it's a heck of it easier that you don't have to change anything anymore unless I'm changing my name. Let me ask a question about content posting and sharing it. I use LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, and some other things, but there's one primary thing, what is your recommendation on posting content and the frequency of it?

Guest: Michael

In terms of posting content, it's kind of anywhere that you think that there's an audience because there's an audience everywhere. You can get hundreds of thousands of followers on TikTok. You can get hundreds and thousands of followers on LinkedIn, Twitter, on wherever. So I don't think the platform is the important bit. It's more of the frequency and the stuff that you're putting out there that holds value now. And I think this is a very important point because you kind of see people all the time say, put stuff out that's valuable. And then it's like, okay, cool, but what does that kind of mean? Because here's the problem, and this is why I hate I shouldn't say hate's a strong word. This is why I dislike being called an influencer because if you look at all the pieces of being an influencer, value is generated based on how many likes, comments, and impressions you get.

Guest: Michael

I think that's arguably a disgusting metric for providing value to people. For me, if I post something and it gets a comment or one impression, I know at that point I helped somebody good enough for me. I don't need to go viral every day. I don't need to post a million things that are just absolutely over the top. I don't measure value, but I measure value more Are you helping at least one person? Yes. Great. Because here's the thing, this is a marathon, not a sprint. If you help one person, that person's going to help another person. That person's going to help another person and it's going to continue or more. So you're going to help one person, that person's going to say, go look at this guy's stuff. Then you got somebody else looking, and then that person's going to say, Hey, this guy's awesome.

Guest: Michael

Go look at this guy's stuff. So I think again, it goes back to the instant gratification of just today's world where it's people think that their value and the value that they're putting out is tied to what goes out and gets what's the word I'm looking for? Viral, right? Listen, I've posted stuff out that it was just like I was just kind of sitting there and it got a hundred thousand impressions. It arguably didn't contain too much value. It was just kind of like a shower thought type of thing, just based on Kubernetes or containers or whatever. So point is, when you're posting out, make sure that the frequency is good. One to two times a day is great. Once a day is great, depending on which direction you want to go in, and think about the value that you want to create, not likes, comments, or impressions, who cares? Think about whether are you creating value with what you're saying is help. Can you help at least one person with what you're saying? Yes. Awesome. Then keep it moving.

Host: Jon

I think that's some really solid advice for those who are looking to share and post content. If you think about anybody, the younger generation, I want to go on YouTube and TikTok and I want thousands of followers, and I think just if I post on LinkedIn and Twitter and I get one on all those, or I get one comment on it, it's good for me. Yeah, granted, I'd love to see more. I'd love to see it kind of go up, but I'm not disappointed. I'm not going to stop posting daily. What I think is key is that this person either liked the content because they saw the value of it, they saw the quality of it and of what I shared, but some of the concerns with those who are just getting started, what are some advice that you would have to folks to say, I want to post on social media, but I just don't like, it's not looking right. I don't know what to do, or I know what to do, but I don't know how to put it out there.

Guest: Michael

Yeah, I would say just give it a shot. Just try it. If here's the thing, whenever you start anything, you don't just start being an expert at something. You have to build up to and you have to work at it and kind of see if it works or not and see if you like it or not. I've changed my approach. I've changed the way I do things, the way I say things, the way I write things, and the way I record things a million times, N not because of anybody else, but just because I wanted to tweak it in certain ways. If you go and you look at some of my first blogs, I was a crappy writer. If you go and you look at some of my first videos, I was like, eh. And then we're going to go here and very monotone, right? I

Host: Jon

Gotcha. Or use the same words over and over and over. Exactly. Again, realizing that you were saying ant.

Guest: Michael

Exactly. Yeah. And guess what? You can't break those habits unless you train yourself to break those habits. And you can't train yourself to break those habits until you get started. It's just like anything in the world. You're not going to hit the gym and put up 2 25 your first day, you're going to throw two 20 fives on the bench, and then you're going to throw a 10 on and then a 45, and then a 25 after that and before it, you'll be up to 2 25 It. It is gradual, everything is very gradual in life. And again, that goes back to the general society at this point always wants everything like this. You want something, you want food, you order Uber Eats, you want to get something that day, you order Amazon Prime. It's kind of the unfortunate reality of the world that we kind of live in right now. But if you can, all I can tell you is if you can take yourself out of that mindset, you will succeed in one way, shape, or form. I can guarantee it. But if you keep yourself in the mindset of instant gratification, this needs to happen right now. Everything needs to happen right now. You're going to quit a million things. You're going to fail a million things, and you're never going to be happy.

Host: Jon

That's a good analogy with the gym and adapting to it and persistence for the change. What is your analogy in talking about throwing some things onto the bench, TW 20 fives, throw your first piece of content out there? Yeah, all right. I got up two reps. Oh, I got two views. What do I need to change? I need to work out more. I need to work on my skills more. Oh my God, my skills are doing good now I got 35 on there. Well, I've got six subscribers. Vice versa. You keep building that and changing and adapting. The first video that I put out there is still on my YouTube channel, and it sucks. That's my opinion now. But that's where it got me and that's where I started. And it's staying there because I always look back and that's how I always progress and adapt to changes.

Guest: Michael

A hundred percent. And here's the other thing to think about too. I work with various organizations. I work with starting a 10-person startup to large tech companies that we've all known and heard of. And I say the same thing every time because I get the same question every single time. How many views do you get, impressions, et cetera? And I always tell everybody, totally understand why that's important. I get it, but it's not my back. I'm a middle-of-funnel content creator. I'm focused on providing value versus getting likes and stuff. Now here's the thing, on the flip side, I have over 23,000 followers across social media, but there's a reason for that. Number one, it didn't happen overnight. Number two, I didn't run ads and all of this stuff. I didn't do any of it. I just let everything happen organically. Did it take longer?

Guest: Michael

Absolutely. Did I gain more genuine followers? Absolutely. Did I have the ability to grow at a good pace and showcase that value at a good pace? Absolutely. So it's not going to seem like much in the beginning. You're not going to get paid thousands of dollars, you're not going to get thousands of views. You're not going to get thousands of impressions. But organically, those things are going to happen as long as you are providing value. And here's the thing, for better or for worse, if you're creating not-good stuff and you don't want to get better, but you want to throw ads at it in all of this to try to get it viral, people are going to see that it's bs, right? So it's all about putting in the hard work. It's all about putting in the dedication. It's all about showing up continuously, showing up continuously, making yourself the person that you want to be, whether it's a better writer, whether it's a better video person, whether it's a better or overall anything, just anything in life. It's just a good rule of thumb in life.

Host: Jon

Michael, I've got one last question before we're going to wrap things up because I have a topic that you and I have to do podcast number two, and I want to talk about what you do around Kubernetes containers and orchestration, and I think the audience is going to resonate with that. We might share some things, show some things on the screen, and might pick your brain being that I'm not an expert in it. So stay tuned, everybody. We're going to do podcast number two, whatever. We'll title something. Michael Lavan. The influence. No, I'm just kidding. <laugh>. Sorry, I couldn't raise it.

Guest: Michael

I start punching my camera on tape. All right.

Host: Jon

Hey, you know what? That would make some good comment content where I would say it, you'd punch the camera, I'd cut to me, and then we'd do it. <laugh>. All right. So my last question and this is for everybody out there that's looking to create content, but works for a company or looking to be socially active, doesn't work for a company, wants to, whatever it may be, what is your feelings and should companies be hiring, consulting, or working with those who are, and I'm going to use the word social influencers or socially active, should they work with folks like ourselves?

Guest: Michael

Absolutely. I mean, listen, there's again, thinking about it from the marketing funnel per perspective, you have top of the funnel and you have middle of funnel folks, the social influencers, the ones that are focused on getting the views and getting the impressions and getting the likes and stuff. Again, fine. Just not my bag, not the way that I think that it should go, essentially. But again, that's my opinion. But yes, companies should work with them. And I'll tell you why. It's for presence. So if you have a product that you're trying to get out there, there's only one way to get it out there. In today's world, today's tech world, community, everything is community driven. In today's world, not about sales, right? I was speaking with a colleague at Microsoft a couple of days ago, and we were talking about how everything's very community-driven right now, and he told me, we do blogs, we do videos, we do webinars, we do this, we do that.

Guest: Michael

In at the end is when the salesperson will come in and say, oh, by the way, here's how much it costs. So if you're a company, if you're creating a product, whether you have five employees or you have 20,000 employees and you want to get that product out there and public-facing, whether it's at a top of funnel perspective, a K A, showing it to people or a middle of fun funnel perspective, a K a, showing people how to use it, you need to hire content creators. Whether you're hiring full-time dev folks, whether you are consulting it out, when, or whatever the case may be, you got to focus on community A must. It's the only way to show people the value of your product and that's about it.

Host: Jon

I think community drives it. Internal efforts, whether you're working with somebody externally, everybody knows that they're an external person, a consultant coming in to talk about it. I don't tie my brand to any company that I wouldn't trust because that's my name that's tied to it. I always look at it. We do a lot of evaluations. We make sure, and that's one of the key benefits of actually being able to decide some of those. But if you have internal folks who are, by the way, I can't use the word folks too much, I have to write that down. That's the second time I've used it. I'll put that off my list. So if you have internal developer advocates who are out there talking about your product in the community, engaging with them, what they're doing is you're building trust with the community, be based on this person, based on their social ability. They're out at community events talking about it. They know your product. They know the in and outs. They will trust them. They will trust your product. It's plain and simple. It's not a hidden thing. There's no secret about it. And Michael, I think the content you create is awesome. The community you're building is awesome, and what you're doing, and posting out there is working. Keep it up

Guest: Michael

And thank you so much, Jon. Appreciate it. I same thing to you. And to echo what you said as well, tying yourself to a company you don't believe in will always result in negativity. I've January 12th, then I've turned down several pieces of work already so far in the new year, simply because it was work that I didn't think that I was the right person for whether it was more influencing, whether it was just different types of work that it didn't feel right. So tying yourself to stuff that you don't think feels right. Never do it for the money. Yeah, never do it for the money. Get good at something and the money's just going to come naturally. And I always say this and people kind of look at me strangely, but making money's the easy part. The hard part is figuring out what you're good at or rather figuring out what you want to do and getting good at that thing. Once you're good at something, people are going to pay you. That's the way that it is.

Host: Jon

I couldn't agree with you, Michael. Thank you so much for joining me. Before we end things, how do people follow you? How can they get ahold of you?

Guest: Michael

Yeah, so LinkedIn, Michael Lavan. Feel free to check that out. Twitter at the NJ DevOps guy. And I'm not going to say anything about, well, I mean I guess you could check it out underscore Michael Lavan on TikTok. I it's either, I'm either going to continue doing it. You're never going to hear from me again on there. It's one or the other. There's going to be no in-between. So enter at your own risk.

Host: Jon

Nice. Well, you've just gained a follower for TikTok. I didn't know you were on. I am not post frequently. Maybe once or twice a month if I have some time. I have other platforms that I'm dedicated to, so I just like to throw some things out there. Michael, thank you so much for joining me for this show. It's been awesome.

Guest: Michael

Thanks, Jon,

Host: Jon

Everybody. My name's Jon Myer. You join the Jon Myer podcast. Don't forget to hit that, like subscribe and notify, because as always, we're out of here.